Faders Up Podcast

S1 EP 19 Mix Theory

September 18, 2020 Czar, Desiree, Pat, and Oshay Season 1 Episode 19
Faders Up Podcast
S1 EP 19 Mix Theory
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

In this episode the hosts discuss mix theory, answering questions such as what makes a good mix. In Who's Been Pushing Faders Up Czar announces Waves new plugin, Kaleidoscopes.  In news discussions are had about new products from Empirical Labs, Softube, Izotope, and Kush Audio.  A new segment is introduced as the host play a game of audio vocabulary from the Audio dictionary book.

As usual this episode will be posted in the
Facebook Group for discussion, Faders Up Podcast.

Follow the hosts, guest, and podcast on Instagram
- FadersUpPodcast
- AudioCzar901
- IamKadencePAT
- Desiree
- ItspronouncedOshay


Have a question you want answered on the podcast? Email us at [email protected]

Speaker 1:

This is the faders up podcast Podcast. I'm Brad I'm Deseret I'm O'Shea. And this is a podcast about pro audio and beyond. Uh , you can reach us on Instagram at faders up podcast. You can email [email protected] and you can reach us on our Facebook group at faders up podcast . Don't forget to subscribe. So you get notified every time we release new episodes. And if you're enjoying the podcast, we do ask that you share with your friends. So this episode, we're going to talk about mixed theory, and we're also going to play a game called for right now, the audio vocabulary game, which should be a lot of fun. It's going to be more exciting than it sounds. And definitely, so basically disarray is going to read definitions to audio terms, and it's like kind of a game show style. We're going to try to get the correct answer first between us. Well , we're going to start this episode with some news. So our 1000 download giveaway has been completed and we have a winner. So congratulations to hidden thicket recording. So recording studio in Wisconsin, a $125 gift card to front end audio. Whoo . Nice congratulations. Thank you for listening. Not spoke to him on Instagram and said he's been rocking with us since day one. So really appreciate that. And , uh , you know , I told him, keep us posted on what he purchases, cause we'd love to share it on the podcast, but show, so a move into our segment of who's been pushing faders up. And this is a segment where we just briefly discussed on what we've been working on recently. So I'll show you how you've been pushing faders up. Yeah , I've been pushing phase up in a couple of ways. Um , finishing up, mixing some beats in my catalog , so sent out a five beat pack. Um, so artists that I met at a conference here in Nashville, so I'm excited and waiting to hear back from her. And also I've been working on creating drum sound from scratch using the new drum synth , uh , plugin and logic 10.5. What a , what conference was it? It was, well, I'm sorry that it wasn't even a conference. It was like a workshop. I was sitting on a panel at SAE , uh, for an event called making money behind the music scene live behind the scenes. And so I was wearing the panelists and she was a guest there. Gotcha. Okay . Alright . How

Speaker 2:

About you Pat? How you've been pushing faders up? Oh , I haven't been, I've just been children, but um , yeah, just I've been on more. So the other side of the fader, if that makes any sense? Not, not yet, but can you unpack it a little bit? What is the other side, the other side of the fader? Um , just handling like the logistics of songs. I also like the admin and business side of it. Yeah. The board had a pro yeah . Where I got a couple songs is coming out with , uh , artists I've been working with, but we kind of rebranding a little bit. So it's kind of been on the photo shoot videos, dad type stuff. So yeah, I ain't been putting off faders cover art, that type of stuff.

Speaker 3:

It's still faders, you know, marketing faders

Speaker 2:

Church or how you've been pushing faders up

Speaker 3:

Man this weekend. Well, by the time this come out, it'll be several weeks. But at the time of this recording this past weekend was my birthday. Um , appreciate it. So I went on, I did a photo shoot with , um, not photo shoot was a video shoot called vote with Anaheim creative. And it was just a cool , um, moments . I love being on set. So that was just a cool time. And so , um, but that video is about, you know, getting out the vote. Black culture is a tribute video to , uh , black lives matters is a whole message. Um, so I was really happy to be a part of that and you know, not like being pampered on my birthday, so that was , but other than that, I still just chopping away at his audio book. Like I'm finding so interesting. I'm glad I did things the way I did, but , um, yeah, it's very different and it's very long winded. Like I'm over it already. You know, you reach that point in any project, no matter how much you love it, you just hit that wall. Like, I just want this to be done. I'm already at that wall . We've got a long road, but it's going to be a lot of fun. Like I say , I'm glad it's just a very calming read. You know what I mean? So I'm not like strained in any way, like trying to, I don't know, like, you know how you're mixing a song, you just don't like, and that just makes the mix process even worse.

Speaker 2:

So tell me about it. The reason I quit it Mixing too many songs. I didn't like,

Speaker 3:

I will have you put it down. It's like , that's your, that's your, you know , that's your own psyche that has to go through that too. And it's just like, ah , so that's real, but yeah, that's how I'm just pushing faders up . So you'll probably hear again the same thing over and over again. Um, how you've been pushing up faders are,

Speaker 1:

Oh , so I've been, I've joined the committee of the a S or the AEs committee for the Nashville chapter, which for those who don't know, AEs has audio engineers society. Uh, so I'm going to be helping, you know , planning some events and which planning events is difficult at this time, obviously with the pandemic, but still just trying to see what we can do , uh , to keep things rolling there. Uh , I've been installing everything on my new iMac. I got my new iMac installed manually ordering , installing all my software. Oh , you ain't had a time machine. Okay. So yes I do. But I hit, I hit a lot of weird stuff going on with my old Mac where I really felt that it was an audio engine, but if I didn't want to just copy everything over, because if anything was corrupted, it would just copy over to the new one. So I did, I just did a fresh install on everything I wanted . I got it. It didn't take as long as I thought it would. It took me a couple of days. Um, and I got most of it done the first day, or I guess most of the important stuff done the first day. But I mean, I didn't want to give a shout out to like waves soft to isotope mic DSP. Like they have installers that you can install and then just select all of your products or it reads your account and knows what products you already have and just makes the install process easy. Whereas someone like plugin Alliance, you have to go one by one, downloading each plugin and installing it. Oh , should I use asking how much Ram I got? So I plan to get 32 gigs of Ram, but I ended up purchasing 64 on accident. Wow . Because it came as two 16 gig sticks. So I ordered, so one 32 gigs was two 16 gig sticks . I ordered two of those thinking I was gonna get , uh , well I was thinking it was one 16 gig stick. Each is what I thought I was purchasing, but really it was two . So I ended up with 64 16 gigs sticks . So I was like, Oh, well, I'll take pallets . But I have to say that the , the Apple security, Oh , I hate it . Catalina is so annoying. Like everything I downloaded, like

Speaker 2:

Waves wants to access this folder. So Chrome downloaded this from the internet. Is this okay? And then some of the stuff I was installing, it told me that even this I'm even opening squad cast here, it's like squad, cast wants to use your camera. Is that okay ? Squat ? That must use your microphone. Is that okay? I'm like, it's cool, man. Permission. Some how's installed essentially . Just say, stop asking. And I get it because people are stupid and I don't get it. And this comes from someone who used to do internet tech support. So like, I get it. People are will, Oh bro. I could tell you some stories, but we're not going to go find a Mac . I don't think that many stupid people buy a Mac because they scared of it . One thing I went to, one thing I went to install said that I didn't have the permissions to I'm like, I own the computer, like the permission. Did you downloaded this from online? Did you know ? Yeah ,

Speaker 3:

They should have it . Like when you click a security, you know, permission, it should be like, okay, is this for like the next hours is for next, you know, for the next day, you know, they should probably at least put a timer on it so that you don't have to keep clicking.

Speaker 2:

We all know what he did. Why did they do that? Yeah. I'm curious now please enlighten us because it makes, how do I want to say this?

Speaker 3:

Oh, the crack epidemic.

Speaker 2:

Yes. It makes it good. Is, is almost, they're trying to make you tired of getting stuff for free the illegal way. And that's their way of doing it.

Speaker 3:

That's max way of doing it. I mean, I can imagine. I mean, I won't go into my dark, dark past, but back then I was using illegal blood ,

Speaker 2:

But yeah, they're trying to get their try , but I'm tired of people out. And I mean, I get, that's why I say I get it. But then at the same time, I mean, what you add one more step to a process that somebody's already been doing for years and years, they don't care. They don't want to pay for it. They don't want to pay for it. Cause I just learned there people, whatever you really want , you go buy it at the end of the day. You only, most people I know are only cracking stuff because they can't afford it. But none of our plugins are correct. Right. Well, I mean, so you only have to deal with what you doing right now the first time are you saying with crack plugins? It's an extra step. You're on a lot of them. Yeah. You have to continue to verify them. Cause it still reads them that they came from my own line , so .

Speaker 1:

Gotcha. Okay. And I'm pretty sure

Speaker 2:

There's a way around it, but you know what I'm saying? I'm not no tech person. I'm sure you can change, you know, the location and permission in the file. That would be annoying to make it look like it's from somewhere else. But that would be very annoying to see someone to see, they see somebody like Chris did get you. They like, Oh yeah, we go irritate him to death.

Speaker 1:

I will say the new, the new iMac is blazing fast. Like I've already done one YouTube video and just even just exporting the podcast is just, it, it flies versus what it used to. So, so far I'm really happy with the , with the performance.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. You gotta send me those specs offline, man. Keep that in mind on my next , uh, my next Eli Dan's screen, Chris.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Yeah. This model is a lot thinner than my previous one. And I think it's well, I've already seen a picture of the insides . It's a lot less internals in this, you know, there's no CD drive is they got the M SSD drive instead of the bigger, hard drive now. So that's what allows it to be.

Speaker 2:

I would be scared .

Speaker 1:

I mean, it's just going to sit there.

Speaker 2:

You will hope what if you trip over something and boom hit the floor. It's just like, I be sitting there with my computer. I'd be like, man, when I'm I feel scared holding in my hand. Cause it's so light. I'm like, all it takes is the wrong rock came out of my hand.

Speaker 1:

I will say that I'm keeping the box at this time because you know the boxes, if anyone's purchased an iMac before the box has kind of like a carrying case for it. I still got my box. Yeah. Cause when I had to go into the Apple store with, I think I ended up putting it in a suitcase and just put it in a suitcase and just rolled it through green Hills .

Speaker 2:

They actually got cases for them .

Speaker 1:

Yeah. I'm not doing that. I'm not true . It's not like I'm traveling with it and that's it. I do wish it had a USB port in the front. I mean, I know that might not be sexy to Apple, but it sure makes a lot of sense. If you just want to plug a thumb drive in versus clocking around the bed ,

Speaker 2:

Have a USBC or

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's got two USBC ports and four USB 3.0 ports .

Speaker 2:

Oh, okay. There's a way around that. Kind of like you said, it may not look super sexy, but you can always get a , um, like a USB like hub and then just Velcro that on the front of your computer.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. I've already went, I ordered a USB three. Oh, hub off Amazon. And I might, I might , um, I might end up doing that, but just initially I just got to keep climbing behind there and it's a little annoying, but um, last thing I'll say I've been doing pushing faders up as I'm working on some YouTube content for a brand new plugin, that waves is gonna be releasing , uh , kind of sworn to secrecy the same thing about it right now. But , um, it will be coming out September 8th. Well , I guess I can't talk about it because by the time this podcast comes out, it'll be out. Uh , the waves is , is coming out with a new plugin called kaleidoscopes, which is a multi modulation affects plugin, which has been really cool for shaping sounds like your pad. I think this is something you would really like. It's two channels of chorus, phaser , flanger, and a tremolo . And you can either run them parallel to each other. So have like, you know , phaser on one side chorus on the other side, or you can feed them into each other and feed like a flanger into a phaser or Trello into a chorus. And it's got a lot of really cool side chain features as well. So you can like trigger the effects with drums or something else. And it just, you can really take a boring sounding synth or something like that and just really give it some movement and life with this. And I haven't done it yet, but I'd also say it'd be really cool combined with some other waves plugins, like maybe Bismark or Brar emotion that you can just chain together and really create some cool and interesting sounds with. So , uh, that'll be out September 8th as well as my content. Cause my video will, my initial video will come out on launch day , which would be September 8th. And then I got some more stuff following up. Cause it's not something I'm going to be able to cover all in one video. Cause it's just, it's so much you can do with this plugin .

Speaker 4:

That's what I've noticed about a lot of plugins, trying to get more into the production side of things. It's like they are trying to make it so that you can use as many effects in one unit as possible. Like how , cause I'm in my mind, I'm like, well you could just do that. You know, you don't need this plugin to do that. You can just make sure that you bow out bus and route, you know, accordingly so that you can create that sort of course for lanch phasing effect. Cause I get what they're trying to do, but I just find it very interesting how companies are going towards making, mixing and creating as one stop as possible. You know what I mean? As one touch as one click as possible , um, also feeds into the AI episode. We did, you know, is that gap of what you really need to know

Speaker 5:

To create is it's becoming a little smaller because the plugin can do almost everything. So it's interesting. I'm excited to see what this does.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. I'm definitely excited to hear what people's feedback on this is because I thought about that initially too . Well, I can take, say studio one's chorus and then studio ones flanger and just chain them up. But it's like, yo, I can do this all in one plugin here.

Speaker 6:

Yeah. It's about simplicity. Pat says it all the time, man. Just if they can, if you can give me the same result and do it quicker and easier, why would I not want to use it? Like I don't think, I think there's a benefit to kind of having the traditional understanding of it. So you know, what's going on if you need to tweak it, but there's no badge of honor in saying, Hey, I did it all manually or I did it the hard way. It's like, yeah, my sound was the same. And I finished an hour ago. So

Speaker 5:

Work smarter, not harder is my motto.

Speaker 1:

Right , right, right. So let's move on into our, into our news topic. We're just talking about when a lot of new releases this week and some of them I didn't even put on here. We'll just talk about a few. And uh , starting with the empirical labs, big free queue freak queue . How do you pronounce that?

Speaker 6:

Thank you. It's free Q though, That sounded like a plugin that do something totally different. Like, Hey man, you got that freaky cute. Like what I ain't nah bruh . Nah , I was talking about czar czar. Basically. You said

Speaker 5:

Freaky .

Speaker 1:

I think it's freak. I think I, you know, is ,

Speaker 5:

Mmm .

Speaker 1:

And this is modeled after the, I think it's called the little freak, their hardware EEQ ,

Speaker 5:

Which is called . I ain't even gonna make no analogy.

Speaker 6:

This one , a good thing . Ain't gonna be like, see ,

Speaker 5:

Oh shit. I'm like, nah, man , you like the little freak,

Speaker 6:

Man . At least they ain't call it the big old free ,

Speaker 5:

Oh , that'll be dogged up .

Speaker 6:

That would be good marketing if she actually got in an endorsement with them and was like, yo, the big old free plugin. I mean, I'm just saying, if you're going to use the title of my song break bread, you know what I'm saying? So anyway, forgive our immature

Speaker 5:

To our listener . That's funny does there , I know you, I think you were the first one of us to , to try it out. Um , what was your initial thoughts?

Speaker 4:

Oh , I liked it. I think it looked cool, which was of course, you know, fall following the O'Shea model of plugins. Gotta be sexy. Um, so it looked cool and I thought it really, it really is tonal shaper. And I liked this as a tonal shaper, not so much as a , a surgical ICU , um, because it really like added like a lift , um, in a way that's very subtle and pleasant. Like I needed to, I was messing with it on a , this audio book I'm doing right. I kind of put a huge bump in like the five to one K range. And like, you know, I don't with vocals. It depends on the voice as far as if that, if that range of frequency will sound good or bad, but like I bump it up and it just sounded good. It seemed like anything I bumped sounded good. And that was a little suspicious to me. So am I let me move this onto mix ? And I mean, it was the same thing. Like any bump I may made it sound good. Mind you, my mix already sounded decent. So it just took a good mix and made it sound better in the frequency ranges I'm wanting to do. And so that's why I liked it, but also too , I couldn't tell entirely what it was doing. You know what I mean? I could tell it was adding color and it was making certain frequencies. I boosted sound good, but like I would turn it off on, off on and I don't know the difference didn't matter, you know what I mean? To me, like it wasn't like a , Oh wow. I really see the difference. I don't know. The difference is so subtle to where it was just like, I feel like this is good in certain applications, like true mastering, like to Polish stuff all , but um, I couldn't see myself using it all the time. And also I was using it in tandem , uh, with the , um , arousers I had also went ahead and got a demo of that and both of those together sound good. And so then on my audio book, I used the distressing . So , um , I'm all in the family right there. So I think, you know what I mean? So I had used the destresser to record, I'm using the arousal and I'm using the, what are we calling it? The big freak free to you ? Q Autos together definitely sounded good. But when I took that , um, when I took their EPQ onto another mix, it, it was underwhelming. You know, it sounded good, but it just wasn't like, yeah, I got to buy it. Now. Maybe it was the flagship version I saw on their website too . They had to delay the full version release. So you could still get it for nine, nine . Well, at the time of this, you can still get

Speaker 5:

It for nine , $9. Um, so maybe there's more to come, but that's my whole take on it.

Speaker 1:

Uh , you've called it the big freak. And then they're , they're a compressor . It's called the rouser

Speaker 5:

Marketing

Speaker 1:

A big , we see a theme here. Right?

Speaker 5:

I'm trying to be slick .

Speaker 1:

W what I really like about it is, so as with all plugins, the first thing I say is, what is this going to do? That my other plugins don't do well , how is , how is this different? And this has the finisher on it, which is a saturation. I see that being able to drive saturation on in that's pretty cool. The slope is well, gives a really unique curve to the EEQ . That's not a traditional curve, I will say.

Speaker 5:

Yeah, that was interesting too, because I like sit out a little bit.

Speaker 1:

Oh , I still need to play with it to see if I can really hear differences with those. But , um, I liked that you can solo each band . That's really nice. What I don't like is that when you go to turn like a gain knob, you turn the, I could boost it five DB or whatever. It's not in until you click in. So the , the bands start out, but they don't turn on when you turn a knob.

Speaker 5:

Uh , so

Speaker 1:

I have no idea why they would do that, but that's kind of annoying to boost something and then realize you're not hearing it because you haven't turned the band on.

Speaker 5:

Yeah. I thought that was strange. They all come off initially. And then you have turned on each one. So

Speaker 1:

A typical week , once you boost the game, like you're boosting it. It's it's there. You see it, you hear it. You don't have to turn on that band. I think, I think a good, a quick fix to that, at least in logic. Well , I'm sure you can do it in studio one as well. Turn them all on, like , don't change the game, turn them all on and then just save it as the default preset. You can do that in studio one. That's a really good idea. Yeah. I'll need to , I need to , I just did it on mine. So now whenever I, whenever I inserted the big free, you know what I'm saying? Like it's already turned off . Yeah , yeah, yeah. No pun intended. Yeah. We have to do that. So let's , uh, the next one is isotope announced our X eight and it first I was kinda like, well, I just bought RX seven a couple of months ago. Like, what did they, what did you do? New and RX eight. That's going to make me want to have it. And when I watched the video of what's new and RX eight, I was like, Oh, okay. I gotta have this.

Speaker 5:

I mean, yeah. I reached out to

Speaker 7:

Isotope because I purchased RX seven less than 60 days ago. So I'm going to see if they'll give me a free upgrade to eight. I couldn't find their policy on that. But , um, I dunno , we'll see. But they I've been using RX seven a lot in mixing. I've been using it a lot, you know , for the podcast editing. Like, I don't know who, I mean, there's other people that does audio restoration, but I really feel like isotope is really leading the game with it. I looked at a few of the new features cause that RX seven, just like you, I mean, they look cool, but I haven't after like really sit down and look at it. And I, to be honest, I don't use RX seven a lot as it is. So in terms of priority, it's not at the top of my list, but if I was using RX seven more frequently than I would be definitely more interested in the new version. I mean, just the first new feature they showed was the spectral. I forgot what the name of the feature was, but it basically restores like zoom or voice Skype calls, which, you know, I've made it known plenty of times that I hate the quality of zoom. So if I can take our X eight and improve our zoom recording quality, I'm definitely down for that other new feature they've got where you can re uh , remove those squeaks from a guitar. Yeah .

Speaker 4:

That was interesting. Like, how do you do the , and then what was even more interesting? It didn't seem to affect the actual guitar itself. Like the guitar still sounded like a tar didn't sound like it was missing any frequencies or, you know, how, when you try to take one bad part out and it affects the whole thing, this did not affect the actual guitar sound. I thought that was interesting.

Speaker 7:

And they've, they've improved their , and I don't know what feature they call it, but you know what, RX seven or with RX you're up here, you can take, you can take a full mix and deconstruct it, but you can take, you can break down the vocals, the drums they've improved that technology in it. I haven't tried that yet. I mean, I guess I really haven't had a need to, but you know, for those producers who like sampling and stuff, being able to take a song or mix and extract the vocals from it, that's pretty powerful.

Speaker 4:

Yeah . Copyright infringement is finna be off the chain .

Speaker 7:

You know what? That's kind of a side note. So I, so I just spent , um, last week and this upcoming week, we're covering crate digging and sampling and my hip hop production class at Belmont and kinda in doing , prepare my lesson. I'm still, I'm still dumbfounded that artists and producers are still getting sued in 2020 with all they know is like we have the night , the 91 with biz Markie

Speaker 6:

Got sued . We got daylight . So we have all this older stuff. I'm like, how are y'all still putting out songs without clearing the samples? That's confusing to me, but I don't know. That's it? I guess another topic. Cause it's worth it.

Speaker 1:

Uh , it's also career ending too ,

Speaker 2:

For real career to end. Yeah. Kanye is correct .

Speaker 1:

Those are super star. Okay . Look at , uh, what's the dude , was it Peter guns?

Speaker 6:

I mean, bro , I mean, don't even mention that in the same conversation, bro , you got , you gotta have the money to be able to afford it, but I'm like for example, Nicki Minaj is being sued by Tracy Chapman because she had a song on, I think it was on the pink print. It was a few years ago. She wanted to get Tracy Chapman and Claire allegedly Tracy Chapman is one of those artists on the do not sample list because they're known for not approving it. So, and she did not approve it. She sent the song to funk flex anyway, so it wasn't on the album, but she sent it to funk flex. And of course flex played it on radio and now she's being sued

Speaker 1:

And she , and I will call her our artists too. I'm thinking another one I'm thinking of is a little flip with , uh , the game sample . We ain't heard of him since.

Speaker 2:

Uh, did he get sued for it though? Yeah , he got sued for it. Would that , did I in why is Korean

Speaker 6:

Sampling? You it's almost like speed .

Speaker 2:

Yeah . I guess that's the thing somebody's career ending just because, and versus I don't think sibling can end nobody's career. Kendrick can Sue right now. That's a superstar artist.

Speaker 6:

I mean, yeah . I mean basically you have one ,

Speaker 2:

The produce , the producer is getting too technical. Okay . Okay.

Speaker 6:

But, but thank God for Sino for all our listeners. It's a lot of them that are producers avoid the headache. Just go to track lib.com uh , track led.com makes it super easy to dig for samples and clear the samples all from the same website. And it's not just random samples. Like, I mean, you like real songs like Isaac Hayes, Beethoven, you know, that's like at least two of the names they mentioned in their advertising.

Speaker 1:

Uh, let's move on to soft, to announced a statement lead, which is their new polyphonic synth, which looks very similar to their, I think it's moment bass , a virtual instrument that they have as well. Uh, I haven't had a chance to mess with this one, but I'm really interested to check it out cause I'm a huge fan of soft tube. And uh, this is definitely one that I want to, I want to check out.

Speaker 6:

Yeah. I download the demo actually as were

Speaker 2:

Recording right now. And I'm still trying to load it up in logic as we're recording the podcast, but I'll be careful not to hit any keys like last time.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. I think they hit the nail on the head with the statement lead. Cause they advertise it as like a get your ideas going. And I think it is a nice little sense to like find that sound you're looking for, for the idea you have. But honestly for me, especially having just got Omnisphere,

Speaker 2:

You're good.

Speaker 3:

You know, I feel like I'm intuitive enough to , I can create those sounds that they have at least in their demo reel that they show . But it, I think it is really good for someone who is like writing , like coming from a songwriter perspective or like I want a song, like, I don't know all of the lights and you can find a sound. I feel like you can take that plug and find a sound like that. Come up with your music bed to start writing and be able to write in that direction. You know what I mean? Versus having like a piano or guitar that doesn't quite fit with what, you know what I mean, trying to fit what you're trying to write. So I think it is a good tool for that. I can see somebody using that like that for sure.

Speaker 2:

Yeah . I really liked the UI of it too. Like it's, it's everything is laid out nicely that, you know, some virtual instruments it's just buttons and knobs all over the place, but this is really laid out. Nice. And I'm looking at this now. I don't know what this aging button does. Oh, I see. New and old. So I guess that's a kind of a modern to vintage. Not , but yeah, everything is laid out here. Nice. This is a really nice UI. I'll have to say for this. I think major companies, especially engine , uh , more mixed and plugging into, they should just stay out of sounds. Yeah , but you're talking about soft tube. Well , that's one of them like waves, stop making sounds. I like waves virtual instruments. Nobody used them. I mean, think they really, I don't think they really market them like that, but I don't know . I've got two waves, virtual instruments and they sound really good to me. They're they're on the, I would say they're on the upper tier of the virtual instruments I have. And then , I mean the other thing and be overpriced, like if I can get some that sound just as good for 50 bucks. I know you're not talking about waves now. Cause it's like $29. Well , I was just talking, I was just speaking in general . I just like, I feel like , uh, yeah, I just feel like some major companies they're making mix and plugins to just stay away from sounds. Yeah . I mean, I'm not, I'm not mad. It's optical for doing that . Cause they soft tube is great. Sound is and waves does too. I'm trying to think. Who would? Um, I , I mean , I got looked at like, I liked the look of the UI,

Speaker 1:

But all those as a producer, like the figs and burdens day on the front, I'm like for what? You know what I'm saying? Like that , that lets me know. They not really in tune to what producers are using people that like to tweak the hell out of stuff. Yeah. But I'm talking about the term wise, just like you said, I don't know what age is like using terms that are relevant to producers versus engineers. I see. Yeah . I think, I think that's just them trying to be different here and this, let me sit back and read this what's under it. Yeah . It's just like, yeah. There's something about harmonics and mojo under that deadline under aging, but with the WIC , I think soft tube has some of the best modeling out there. So , um , I'm not mad at them doing a sense and they do have , um, they do have a SoundCloud link, you know,

Speaker 3:

I'm playing a few different patches.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. If you look at the, the monument base, it's really the same UI for the most part. And they're saying that it goes well with it. I don't know why solve tube. Isn't offering this as a bundle where you get this and the base one , um, together as a bundle, just saying or so , uh, it was good to the last one here, which is a , the Silca from Kush, which is a two based compressor plugin that they're saying sounds exactly like analog. It doesn't distort, which is,

Speaker 3:

It sounds good. I'm not saying it doesn't but

Speaker 1:

I would like to hear it on more sources though. Uh , but I don't know if this I don't, I don't the Kush isn't um , an , a bundle is pretty good price for the , uh, offer the subscription. Yeah. And that's I was thinking about that just to try their, their plugins. I want to , because I haven't, I've never really tried Kush plugins. I've never heard anything bad about them. I know a lot of people like them, but um, they looked and my rig voice Brown is color tone . They're a little fresh. Yeah .

Speaker 3:

Let me rephrase my distort a comment. It does the distort , but it does not that it's like super ugly lacquer . Like I don't like that.

Speaker 1:

The whole three, the VU meters, as you notice that it's like three needles on it. That was odd to me. I'd have to really see what's going on with that. But um, yeah. That's hella confusing. Even if the three needles are for three different types of like, maybe one's the peak , one's the average or whatever. I don't want to see all three of those at the same time. I think. Um , I mean , I'm pretty sure one

Speaker 7:

Is input and one is output and one is gain reduction is probably what it is. Oh yeah. That, that's what the labels say on it. I will say shout out to Kush because if you look back, cause I had some of their older products demos and you can see the growth in their design team, like, like silica compared to like one of their older joints. I mean, it totally looks like they have a brand new designer. Cause this looks sexy and that other stuff was like, Oh ugly, ugly, man. It was like, Ooh, ugly looking anyway. That's my thoughts on that. Let's move on to this, to the audio vocabulary game.

Speaker 4:

Bye . Bye bye.

Speaker 7:

So the pressure Ray's going to give a definition and we will. Yes . The word

Speaker 4:

[inaudible] . So I'm gonna read the definition. I have to see you . So we're on square Caz when our listeners can't see what I have to see your Palm. Right? So I'm gonna read the definition. You have to guess the , where you get one guest Sergeant the hands up don't shoot for. Right.

Speaker 7:

I was like, yo, that was triggered .

Speaker 4:

It's true . It works too. Okay. So yeah . First person at three wins, right ? Oh , here we go. Okay. Another name for avail variable at attenuator or volume control. I'm gonna read it one more time. Another name for a variable attenuator or volume control. Okay . Fader Qur'an

Speaker 7:

Ah , yeah. Fader on the faders up podcasts . Get at me dog.

Speaker 4:

Yeah. I wanted to make the first one easy. So once , so

Speaker 7:

I would have said a trim.

Speaker 4:

Mm . Okay. Um, that is really going to test how much, you know your stuff. Oh , literally I hear in Latin, this term means I hear in a Latin. Oh ,

Speaker 7:

I don't know

Speaker 4:

The term pertains to any signal sound, wave form, et cetera. That can be heard as distinguished from ultrasonic sound, radio frequency signals or video signals. What is this term? OSHA music incorrect .

Speaker 7:

I hear a term that means I hear look it up on the internet. I got his head down. You're not Googling over there. Aren't you?

Speaker 4:

Right? Cheating. Okay. Time's up for that one? The term is audio. So audio English word. Not at all. It is Latin for. I hear . And then side. Interesting. No audio files stems from the Latin and Greek word, which means a lover of hearing. So we're all audio files. All right . Let's see .

Speaker 7:

Mm . How has thinking some basic like that too ? I , uh,

Speaker 4:

Yeah. You know, and it really was that simple. Like y'all know these, you know, you just gotta sift through the over extremeness of these, of these , uh, examples here. Okay . This will really test some y'alls knowledge about engineering specifically. And so let's see. What is the term? That is the three element vacuum tube in which the elements are the cathode, the grid and the plate.

Speaker 7:

Zahra . This is all you. I know. I'm not even going to attempt to raise my hand three , one last time because I got a word in mind, but

Speaker 4:

The three element vacuum tube in which the elements are the catheter , the grid and the plane , the blank is probably the most common type of tube. And it's used primarily as an amplifier stage as a cathode follower.

Speaker 7:

Oh , I have two answers. Yes. If you don't get it right. I'll guess I'll I'm going to say, I'll go with, I'll put one out there first. Try it .

Speaker 4:

Yeah. Good job. Hell yeah. That is a trial that I just learned that , Oh my gosh .

Speaker 7:

You gonna say tryout or Pinto, but try or try. You said three. It makes sense. Good stuff, man. It's the glasses man is bringing it outta you, bro.

Speaker 4:

Okay. Okay. We will do. Oh , let's do one more. Let's see. What was this one?

Speaker 7:

I so tiebreaker between me and czar . Alright . Okay.

Speaker 4:

On this one. Y'all should get one. Y'all should get this one.

Speaker 7:

Let's let pack get it.

Speaker 4:

Okay. So the blank is the simplest possible periodic way for them , it consists of a single frame. Let me finish a single frequency and as a musical pitch, but a net, a neutral timbre or tone quality. What is this?

Speaker 7:

I think I know it, but go ahead. You raise your hand out . Pat, do you want to try first? No, I , uh, sign away.

Speaker 4:

That's what I was gonna say. That was pretty good.

Speaker 7:

So what do I win?

Speaker 4:

You win the badge, knowing your shit.

Speaker 3:

We're proud.

Speaker 7:

You win bragging rights, right? That was fun.

Speaker 3:

It is. And we're going to find a way to make this more exciting, but yet audio dictionary by Glenn D. White and Gary J. Lewis .

Speaker 7:

Maybe we should start by just giving a definition to one word, like a common term. That would be not . Yeah. Hi, mr . Fat. See , you're contributing. Good job . I didn't know none of it . I definitely , I definitely ain't know that one Zara got. I was like, I ain't even try . It's like bro , it's all you. I was sitting in like, Oh yeah .

Speaker 3:

It's that deep , um , deep knowledge of, of engineering.

Speaker 7:

Definitely. Well, let's move into our main topic, which is mixed theory where it's going to be discussing our theory on, on mixing here and start. The first question here is what makes a good mix. And is it based on clarity and is that John rhe specific or application specific? That is a great question. I think the first thing that I can mix good is if I did it now I'm joking. Um, yeah , I wasn't joking at first. Um, but not for, I think a good mix ultimately is based on, I think the main determinant factor is how do the listener here ? Like, does the mix compliment the song, right? If it's, if it's anything where somebody's listening to the song and instead of enjoying it or dancing, they like, eh, like they pause , Hey, did you hear that? It's a bad mix. Like if people can notice what you're doing, like regular listeners, if they notice what you're doing or they're talking about the mix. Probably not a good mix for me because I , you know , I mainly do hip hop R and B I clarity does matter to me. You know, if it's something like low fire or something that may be different, but balancing clarity are kind of the most important parts to me. Can you hear everything equally and clearly, what do you think? Um, yeah, I agree with that balancing quality , um, uh , balance and clarity are huge when it comes to the mix, especially pop R and B hip hop. And you know, I'll also say that part of clarity in my opinion comes from the recording as well, but those two are definitely, and I agree with the making you want to listen to it again or people

Speaker 2:

Moving to it again. Cause I think we've all heard songs that were good songs, but just had bad record or bad recordings too. So yeah .

Speaker 4:

I remember hearing a song on a radio that was literally like, it was on the radio. So I was surprised, but literally sounded like they took this person's vocals, like mixed, the whole record, took the featured artist vocals and just slapped it on top of it and then bounced it and sent it off as completed. And it literally in my mind, I'm like, okay, could this have been a taste thing? Like cause of the genre and , and , and I was just like, nah , this is just a bad mix .

Speaker 2:

Yeah . I think people were talking about that with the , um , with the Jay electronica album that came out and to be honest, it was like, hate it or love it. You know, like me personally, sonically, I didn't like it at all because it's, it sounded, in my opinion, it sounded unprofessional bootleg, you know, whatever. But you would think artists of Jay electronica is , you know, prestige and rock nation is like, and they definitely had access to studios. So then I'm like, Oh, it must have been a Sonic choice. And some people liked it. I didn't though. I think probably a good mix is , I mean, to go opposite what everybody said . I think it's also based on performance. You mean ? Okay. Because if , cause I think the performance of artists can override a good mix. You mean if it's a bad performance? No. If it's a good performance, Dimmick's when matters as much. Oh I got you.

Speaker 4:

I get it. Yeah . Yeah. And I can, I can say like listening to,

Speaker 2:

Cause I think I'm part of a good artist delivering on a song is clarity. Like if the artist understands what they're doing, knowing how to pronounce their words, that's delivery. That's what creates clarity. Like to me, yeah. You can clean it up with EPQ and all this stuff, but the clarity has to come from the person who would deliver it first. And so to me that would start, that would be the start of a good mix. I would agree with you in the sense that I would say at the end of the day, it starts with this song. Do you have a good song? Which I think is basically what you're saying, because you can throw her bad songs. We were bad songs, but the artists delivered it well and I've also heard. Good, great mixes with the performance was terrible. Yeah. I don't know. I feel like I would, I would rather hear a great song with a okay mix then a great mix on a bad song. Cause at the end of the day, as a listener of music, right . As an audio file, if I don't like the song, I don't care how great the mix is. It's like, that's true. It doesn't matter with you. You, you kind of where you ain't making my point, but that's what you just said is how everybody feels . Nobody really cares about the mix. It was a good song.

Speaker 3:

That's true. I'm trying to find a song by Kevin Gates. Now I can't think of a name. He puts out a lot of raw stuff. Like you can tell he has his more polished songs, like two phones and everything else he has. And then he has like a whole bed of just stuff you can tell. He goes to the studio and like records and releases within a week. Um , there's one song in particular that I like, I can't think of the name of it or find it, but it's just that. And I'm like, this song is muddy as hell. I can tell where the vocal is clashing with the upbeat. Like it's not a great mix , but it's bumping Kevin Gates does like he performs like over in the beat is hard. Of course. So I, I agree with that. Like a lot of people just aren't paying attention to it, but um, I do think it goes like I still, I find myself mixing hip hop the way I would pop. And I found that to be very incorrect. You know what I mean? So at the same time, while people don't care, it still will make like a subtle difference. Like I like this song, but for some reason it's not jelling in my ears the way I expect the genre to do, you know?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Cause I mean, I hate the whole concept of, I don't know if y'all been noticing this, but like people don't even get the whole albums mixed by the same engineer. No more. They spend the top dollar to get the best engineer two weeks to single and then they get their homeboy or somebody, you know, less to mixed all out. And you hear the distinct difference between the single and the album. I can say that I haven't paid attention to that, but I can say that because it's like, nobody is listening to the mix. Disclaimer on that though. It's like, cause what, what I don't want is our listeners. They'll be like, Oh, okay. It doesn't matter. And then they go and then they record their vocals in their bedroom and they put it on Spotify and think, Hey, I'm good. It's like, no, there's a reason why certain engineers get paid. You know what I'm saying? Educational point. But even with us, we're the only ones listening for clarity and in music is music. That's it?

Speaker 7:

Because we know to listen to it, listen for it. But a regular listener, they may not know the technical, but they can hear something and be like, eh, that don't sound like that hit that. I just heard on the radio. And I think subconsciously like they , they will respond accordingly. Yeah. They can, average listeners can definitely tell a subpar recording or mix and they may not be able to voice it like we can, but it will definitely turn them off.

Speaker 3:

I feel like ears get fatigued over awhile after awhile, regardless if you're paying attention to it ,

Speaker 7:

It was played in the right environment on Amanda . Can you imagine me? And one of those homeboys mixing and be like, Oh , let me get, let me do that song. And they're like, nah, you can do these over here, man. I be so offended. Like what you mean? Like what's the difference? This one's going to be my single that's the difference you waste the money though. If you go to the top engineer that makes a single, let them mix the whole time.

Speaker 3:

Thank God they ain't got whole thing money. I don't know.

Speaker 7:

Yeah. Well the [inaudible] your house engineer build the relationships shoe . Cause when , when people come to me and they want more than one song mix, you know, I work with them, you know, it's like, Hey, I get it. Unless you come into me, you are already on a major label and you got a budget. I get it. You out here trying to make it just like, I'm trying to make it. It don't mean I'm a , just give you a whole bunch of free stuff, but it's like, you know what? I'm an entrepreneur. I get it. So let's see how we can work a mutually beneficial scenario. Good . I mean, I'm just saying that, you know, the audio professionals, I don't want, I only want us to really care about the mix like that. And we don't technically spend money on the product as much as the customer does.

Speaker 3:

So considering that it still matters, what is considered too much compression. Cause we hear about compression all the time. I think there's so much confusion around it and it goes into how we perceive a good mix. So what would y'all say is too much compression to a point where you're squashing it,

Speaker 7:

You're talking about overall song or individual tracks. The overall , the overall I can only speak for myself. I can, am I, I guess my ears probably weird sometimes, but I do a lot of comparing and contrast. A lot of times it's hard for me to hear was to squash, to compress without listening to something else as a reference. Because sometimes you like, if , if you

Speaker 1:

Do too much compression all the time where you squash all the time, it's normal to you. I can see that unless I hear something else. My hold on was Y you know, of course things Zar and be like, Hey, why does this, why does my mic sound like this? And they mix now like that , you know, what, what is the difference? I have to ask a question. Like, I can't really tell off a listen like that. Just me as a person that doesn't really get into the engineering as much as I used to. So I have something to compare it to, to be able to tell was squashed and was too compressed. That's fair. A lot of stuff is , is squash now because everybody wants their stuff loud as hell. And , and for a lot of stuff like, you know, pop, I say EDM too , is your , you can squat . It's not. So the difference between squashing something and having something dynamic is, you know , does that Sean Shaundra allow not allow, but do you want to have dynamics in that genre? And a lot of pop songs, aren't really dynamic. A lot of EDM songs are not dynamic sobbing in those you can get away with, you know , a little more compression, but the way that I would say you can tell if you're over compressing it , at least for me is when I can really hear it. If you turn the threshold down and okay, you're getting a couple of DB compressions, okay. And you keep going, keep going, keep going. There's going to be a point where you start to Mexico , the Mexican Dole a little bit, cause you're really killing the high frequency with the compression. And once you , you can really start to hear that difference. That's when you've spent probably when you're doing too much, but I mean, I'd say on mix bus, I generally do like to DB a compression and I can hear that as far as taking it in and out. Definitely no more than four, but generally like two to three compression is what I'm doing on the mix bus just to glue stuff together. But,

Speaker 3:

And I think compression is such a art form after a while , like getting it just right and trying to compete with those levels. Um, and John , when you say like, when you start to hear it for me, that means like I can hear the attenuation of, you know, I can hear the compressor pulling back , uh, dynamics when they go over the threshold, you know, at all of my, as my settings are set and that is sometimes one is sometimes not. I think that when, when you talk about compression, you really are talking about the genre because you're not going to squash , uh, a guitar. And , um, in vocal saw , you know, you're not going to a jazz

Speaker 4:

Piece like that, but at the same time, I don't know, you have to still compete with the loudness. So

Speaker 1:

Loudness Wars is what they call it and then talking about dynamics. Let me just say that for everyone, listening dynamics is a good thing. You want dynamics, let's define what it is. What do you mean by dynamics? Or, you know , your dynamic range is the range from the softest signal to the loudest signal. So yes, compressors will compress that dynamic range, but dynamics will. And so, and just in layman's terms , what I mean by that Neomix is that you want the song to have its loud points and softer points to me that makes for more interesting mix. If you have a sound that let's say you have, like, let's say like an intimate vocal that's gets loud and it gets soft. Okay, you've got that performance there. If you squash that with a compressor, then it's just going to stay at the same level the whole time. And that may not be interesting and likely won't be as interesting as just a soft, intimate, vocal moving dynamically. But yeah, but I'm just saying the dynamics overall having dynamics in a mix in my opinion helps the make , depending on the genre again, but most times you do want to leave some dynamics in there and I'll throw a plug plugin . I use all the time out there. It's the BX meter from plugin Alliance is a really good level meter that shows your peak. It shows your RMS, and it also shows M phase as well. But the biggest thing there is the RMS, which is your , your average level. And it also tells you your dynamic range as well.

Speaker 4:

We're and I think that's an important point to keep, because I think genre is going to play heavy into how you approach a mix every time. But with every mix you have to remember to keep it musical that's at least the tenant. I always be sure to, I'm always sure to stands on, like , what's going to help this be, you know, as musical as possible. So like you said, if you have an intimate vocal that gets loud, I mean, they get soft and then it gets loud. And that is part of the song. Like the message is communicated through those loud and soft points, then it squash them. You would be ruining the song, you know, as an engineer, as a mix engineers specifically, I think folks got to remember, you're, you're adding to the, you know, the sound, the Sonic quality to songs . So when you take something that should be dynamic , um, and then you squash it just cause that's what you think you should do. Or that's what you've been told to do. Oh no . That's , I think that's where you start to define your style. As an engineer also is really how you learn to use compression to bring out dynamics, quash, dynamics, performances, and all that good stuff.

Speaker 2:

I mean, dynamic is really falls on a lot of different people. Like I think like the song, a lot of times the songs are written with dynamics. So if a song is not written with dynamics , um, when the vocal, when the vocalist gets in the booth and I'm performing with dynamics and a lot of times, if the B doesn't demand or show where the dynamic should come, then nobody's going to write with the dynamics. So I think each part or a person creating to the song plays in the whole dynamic role . And that's incredibly engineered to like, cause I try to make sure, like my verses distinct dynamics are different from my hooks, just so you know, okay, this is the hook. You know , this is where this changes . This is where the bridge is. This is the intro. This is the outro. Then that way, when somebody writes to it, they, if forces them to write that way. And then when you have a vocalist, it forces them to seem that way. Because if they hear to be louder, what they going to do to go raise their voice a little bit? Because a lot of times, yeah , a lot of times, if you hear a lot of times , a lot of the newer songs, the style is not to have the dynamic. They, they give you the straight tone throughout the song. So Dan , as an engineer or producer, you have to make up for that. If they write the whole song straight and they write like a repetitive hook or whatever, you have to put the dynamics either in the beat or in the mix, just so that the dynamic is in the song because some people just don't know how to write with dynamics . They don't understand the concept because they haven't been trained to do that. They just writing a song. Cause I mean, if you listen to a Drake song, you don't really use dynamics like that. I'm pretty sure his engineers and his producing put the dynamics in there for, if you listen to him , he just talking , man, he don't really go high , you know, louder or lower, you know, sometimes he do, but not a lot. It's really very much modeled tone, you know, he straight through the whole joint. And so the producer an engineer has to put the dynamics in the song to make you , um, gravitate to it. Um, so how do y'all determine a bad frequency to , to cut out and now how do you determine a good frequency to bring out boost?

Speaker 6:

You first have to listen to the song before you just start touching stuff. Right? A lot of times amateurs may want to just start twisting and stuff is like, Hey, you may not need to. But as far as once I, once I identify a bad frequency or the way I go about identifying them is when you can go by ear. You know, I mean, if some is obvious, it's like, Oh, it's too much low end in that. But normally what I do is something called search and destroy. So I put an E Q on my channel, let's say my vocal. Um, and I'll use a , um , hang , I'm forgetting the name of it, a parametric IQ , right? So I'll turn the gain all the way up and I'll use a narrow bandwidth. Um, so that way it's is not affecting the surrounding frequencies as much. And I would just sweep back and forth. And when I find kind of those resonant frequencies, I just cut those mainly when I really need to use EPQ is on a vocal, but kinda like Zahra mentioned earlier, it starts with the recording. If you set the mic up the right way, you position the artist the right way, you're doing a lot of the heavy lifting in the recording. So the mixing shit, you know, it shouldn't be as challenging.

Speaker 4:

Yeah . I think the search and destroy, I meant that is the tried and true method. But for me, that question more so says, how do you know when that frequency doesn't fit? And for me, and it is an ear training thing too , you know, before you just start dipping out every little frequency that you think sounds bad, like cause when you turn that notch up and I turn it all the way up, right. All the way to the highest decibel, that'll go , uh you'll you're gonna hear artifacts. You're just gonna hear that frequency amped up and to determine a bad versus good for him . I mean like everyone knows, like, you know, between three and four, you got a boxy sound when it comes to light drums and vocals and um , other acoustic instruments. So you know where to go and that regard, and then over time you learn what frequencies that just period sound bad. But um, it takes some ear training to say this frequency is literally, you know, when you have your notch filter up and you're sweeping through the , the range, like this frequency literally sounds bad. And I think a way to test that. Cause usually when you're doing that, you're doing it in solo. Right. Or do you, did you search and destroy in the full mix while you're doing the full mix playback

Speaker 6:

Surgical ICU? I do it in solo and this is the reason why I like, and I've done this before with students. Like once you do the surgical ICU , like , and you turn it on and off and bypass it, you can't, you can't hear the difference. You know what I'm saying? Like, but my approach is subtlety. It's like, even you can't hear the difference on these $50 headphones or those $200 speakers. That doesn't mean that it's not there. So, so I do surgical just for subtlety. And I always do that first on a channel in terms of processing and then I'll use a different EEQ to kind of add flavor. And you know what I'm saying? Like, like boost in certain areas.

Speaker 1:

So when you say you do it subtly, do you mean you're not dipping a bad frequency out entirely? Um, like do you notch it ?

Speaker 6:

The widening of the Nazi ? Yeah. I didn't finish the , explain it. So after, so with the narrow band with , after I find that problematic frequency, I normally don't cut more than six DB and then I will widen it up a little bit. Um, and my thing with the EEQ is kind of what czar said , uh, as far as how do you know when it's too much compression? Right. And he said, basically when you start really hearing that drastic difference, you probably done too much. And so I do the same thing with the EEQ right. I'll turn it off and I'll turn it on. If it sounds super drastic, then I stopped because it's like, that's not my goal when I'm doing a surgical ICU. And then other things kind of like what you were saying, like, how do you know what's bad? Honestly, that's when we get into some of the subjectivity of music, because it was like, it might sound bad to me, it sound good to you, right? Like me czar . We may not always agree on everything. You know , I'm like, ah, I kind of don't like that frequency and it, and it's about your ears. You know what I'm saying? Cause some of us are more sensitive to some frequencies than others. So I think it's subjective to a degree, but I think there is objective theory and kind of fundamental things that help you make those subjective decisions. If that makes sense.

Speaker 1:

And uh , I'll say the way I approach it is it was our first I'll take this , just use a vocal for example. And the way I determine what I don't like or I do like is first I determine what do I want it to sound like? What do I want this? I'll get a picture in my head of what I want this vocal to sound on. Like listen to what it sounds like now and kind of make adjustments off that. Is it too much low end in here? Is it too much high end? Is it too harsh? Um , I'll always do corrective first because once I do correct a VQ, I may not need to boost anything. It may just need the bad frequencies removed and then it's and then it sounds fine. Uh, generally if I'm boosting after I do correct the VQ it's to maybe help that track cut through a little bit more. Hmm . And do you view D booths with a wide or narrow bandwidth? Oh , boosting a normally wide. If I'm boosting something, I really want it to be heard. Whereas surgical I'm doing more. Well, it depends on that too. If I'm notching something out versus a, Oh , I can't think of a difference now the asymmetrical IQ and symmetrical IQ , I camera one of them does if you boost, if you boost it's wide, but if you cut it's narrow and those are the type of VQs I usually like to use, cause it's already, I don't really have to do too much to the queue cause it's already going to boost wide for me and cut narrow for me.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. Those are tricky. I appreciate that. But at the same time I read , I'd rather determine my own, my own cue , but yeah, that is an added plus with plugins like that. Um, these next couple of questions, I'm just going to combine into a hodgepodge cause they it's pretty, I just realized they're like, it's like the same question , isn't it ?

Speaker 1:

They're related to each other for sure.

Speaker 3:

Very much so. So what we can move into now is just how to approach a mix. Like when you sit down, you have 32 tracks of instruments and they all need to sound like they're in the same room in the same place. Um, there's a book called the art of mixing by David Gibson. It's a really good book for mix engineers just starting out because it visually, visually helps you picture a mix because you're going to hear this all the time, Sonic picture, where is it in the Sonic picture? How are you painting your Sonic picture? Um, and he basically puts that in a literal form. And so if you , um , come across this book, it's a very great way of visualizing the mix, where to put the high hat, where to put the Kik , where to put reverb, what to put for lands or all that stuff, all that stuff. So with that in mind, how do y'all approach a mix? Do you just listen down two at one time and start moving stuff around? Do you listen to it and just vibe with it and then start moving stuff around? Or what is your initial attack on a mix?

Speaker 1:

I'll say the first thing I do is I'll listen to it through, well, I'll put it on loop and let it loop. And as this looping, I'm doing stuff like splitting stereo tracks in the mano because we know we did stereo snares and stereo kicks. I'm doing stuff like that. Really setting up the mix . Um , I may be creating some VCA channels while I'm doing all of that. I'm just letting it loop and doing what I call a passive listening, which just basically means that I'm I'm listening, but I'm not like focusly listening. And my passive listen is just me seeing if anything jumps out to me while I'm passing passively listening, I'm like, okay, that's that needs to be fixed. That needs to be fixed. And just making mental notes. Yeah. That's generally how I see a color coding. My tracks goes into while I'm doing that. I'm just letting it loop and just getting a feel for it. And again, just passively listening, seeing what jumps out at me when I'm not really focused on just listening. Is that also how you would determine the most important element in the mix like or do you have to take a more active listening moment when saying this is the element that needs to stand out no matter what other than the vocal of course. Um, yeah, I will still do that on a passive list and just make a mental note. Oh, this is going to draw the listener's ear more. Let's have this guitar, let's have this synth more upfront. Oh, this pad, we can push that in the back a little bit. Not kind of mentally placing stuff there before I start to gain staging.

Speaker 6:

Yeah , I think , uh, my, my approach is very similar to czar . Um, I definitely organized first, so I color code my tracks and make sure everything is correctly labeled. Um , now in an ideal scenario, this is stuff you could have , uh , an assistant engineer do or intern. Um, I've had students of mine do this before, right where it's like, you know what, let me give them real world experience. I, in real life, I need this song mix, Hey, I'm going to have this student do you know? Um, and I create subgroups. So normally , um, I have three different subgroups of a rhythm sub group , uh , which is drums and bass ever , melody subgroup, which is all my other instruments. Then I have a vocal subgroup. So kind of once I do all that , um, as I'm listening to it like Zuora , it's on loop and I'm listening passively , um, I'll start to do a basic static mix. So we'll adjust general balance and panning. Um, as far as faders, normally I start with, I change my unity game . So my new unity, I start at negative six DB as my like zero Mark or unity gain Mark, you know, no matter where they are out collectively together, I'll move them all up. Um, and for me it just makes everything stand out a lot more. And then when I'm doing basic panning , I paint , uh , according to the EEQ right. So EEQ from left

Speaker 7:

To right. So lower frequency instruments, except for bass kicking bass , you know, out pain. If I do decide to panic, it's somewhere, you know, to the left of the center knob and higher frequencies somewhere to the right of the center nap. So that's kind of how I get started before we get to like EQ and compression and reverb and stuff. So is that how you visualize the mix low, low frequencies on the left and higher ones on the right? Yeah . That's how I visualize it. And like I said, other than kick bass and lead vocal, you know, that's how I do it. Word word . I never hard. I never hard paying though. Like I never like hard pan to the left or the right. So I put it somewhere in that field, but it's never all the way in that field. I mean , I don't typically hard pan stuff. I put them , like you said clothes , but I do know there is some mixing methods where people will only hard pan left, right. Or center and have nothing, you know, it , um, you know, 11 o'clock or two o'clock, nothing like that. Everything is just hard left hard writer center. Yeah. I've heard stuff like that. And then when you get a short in your headphones, it sucks. Cause it's like, where did the rest of the song go?

Speaker 4:

Yeah. I think I do the same thing how y'all are saying. And it's like, so natural now. Cause I can, I can see a beginner person listening to this . Like I can't do any of that. And it's like, I think after a while you just kinda , you just kinda know what to listen for. Like how you says are you're listening for , um , just weird stuff, stuff that sticks out. I'm usually just getting an overall vibe for and especially picking out the important things. Um, and where I want to pan anything. I'm the type I'll start attacking it right away. Um, especially if I know I have like a whole bunch of like instruments, like I'm I got to , for me to visualize the mix , I have to pretty much hear it already. So I'll start turning stuff down, panning stuff left and right. Even if it's not the final, you know what I'm saying, decision I'll make, I just need something so that I can at least understand what I'm listening for. So I'll start queuing stuff out. Um, haphazardly to is not even clean is just like, I just need to hear it. Um, and I think, I dunno , I think I'm gonna change that up a little bit, honestly, but for me it's worked just because from there I can start to build my Sonic picture for that mix. Um, in a way that, especially if you know how y'all say, like you get a recall , it all starts at the recording. And so if I'm dealing with a bad recording already, I really want to get everything like just in a, just in a place. Like I'm just put the guitars here for now the strings here for now the sense here for now until I can get this figured out and then I'll start moving things into the place. I really actually want them to be , um, I never heard of people only ever panning hard left and right. That's weird.

Speaker 7:

Say also before or , or trot panning stuff before you try you cuing too . Cause a lot of times, not a lot of times, but you're queuing . If you're trying to cue something to make it sit better with another instrument, a lot of times, if you just use your panning and you know, paying one instrument one way and the other and you know , putting them in different space will separate them versus you trying to separate them with EEQ . Yep . I do that too. I remember. Um , so Lauren hit like the food GS went , you know, mid nineties at a rap group. They were my favorite rap group. And I remember Lauren Hill had a line where she said two MCs can occupy the same space at the same time. It's against the law of physics. And I always remember it because I approach mixing like that too . Like two things. Can I just pipe the same space at the same time? Right? So if you have, unless you're purposely layering them, if you have two different sounds fighting for space, they can't sit in the same space at the same time. So like Zara said, that's when you can start using painting to create space before EKU and S uh , you, you're not introducing a new signal, you know, doing it that way as well. And one more thing I'll add is that a lot of times when you have stuff that's clashing , uh, sometimes I won't say all the time, but sometimes that's just due to bad production. Um, I think that there's certain, there are certain producers tracks. That's easier for me to mix because they already understand putting sounds in certain frequency spaces to where they're like, Oh, I'm not going to add another sound on top of this because no , the high frequency is already filled out or the mid range has already filled out, I guess. Do you agree with that, Pat? Oh, do you pay attention to what's taken up what space sonically when you're producing? Initially I don't. And as I get closer to finishing a B is where I kind of start paying attention to where the frequencies are. Cause I mean, I think I've said this before. I believe a complete beat has for the most part has something that represents , um, their spectrum. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And so I find myself, I just make the beat first in DN , as I'm getting closer to finishing it, DNI of try to fill those spots first. And then once I fill those spots, that's kind of where I started balancing everything. And that's how I know the beat is done. Well , well, let me ask this what we were just saying. And anybody can answer this in terms of using panning and

Speaker 1:

Cue to create space. Would that same approach work to balancing like multiple guitars string sense or other instruments, you know, that kind of exists in the same frequency space? Yeah, I'd say so as well, because there is, I mean, especially the men range because guitars are mid range. Piano is mid range. Vocal is mid range. I mean, there's a lot of sounds since our , well, for the most part are our mid range. So, you know, it was definitely definitely elements that you have to , to move around and set in its own space. And like you mentioned about visualizing a mix, another way to think of it, you know , for the listeners is think that you have these elements coming into a room. You're not going to sit them all on top of each other in the same place, in a room to say, you know, guitars, you go over there since you go over there , vocals, you come up front with me and really visualize it as a, you know , as a room.

Speaker 2:

A lot of times I have to, man, I don't know how many people do this either, but I kind of, because a lot of times I don't have the vocal. I try to go ahead and make the space for it.

Speaker 1:

That's nice. That is a mix engineer. That's much appreciated.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. I try to go in and at least that , I mean , I'm not even a lot of times, I'm not even necessarily, I guess, mixing the beat all the way, but I'm just creating the space. So the vocal can see it where it's supposed to sit. So a lot of times I start, so I use vocal chops a lot, like all of my vocal chops, for the most part, I put filters on them and pants in different. So they come from different places versus I don't want them to sit in the middle , middle, cause it throws the vocalists off most of the time. So I kind of put it on the side and I feel it's warm and kind of put them under somewhere. So it won't turn nobody off. So then when they get in the middle of the track, it's almost like you hear them. And then it's like that person that's talking over there in the corner. And then you hear another person that's talking to him in the corner that might be on the phone or something. That's how I liked the other vocals to sound almost kind of like add lives . I use them as add lives more so than sounds, man . That's that's really, I feel like that's really forward thinking compared to what a lot of people probably do. Yeah. I, I, yeah. I try to make the space. Cause what I've learned is, and it's crazy because when somebody right into your beat, the, my artist over me , by the end of the day, I've been in writing sessions, I rebuilding a beef from scratch and I have had writers to say, stop right there. Don't add nothing else. And it's because they, they hear where they vocal go . But as you continue on, they stop hearing where they vocal go and then it throws them off. So if I'm in a room by myself, like I said , I make the beat and then I just go ahead and make the room for the vocal. So then when I send them to track or they hear it, they can already hear their vocal there. So it makes it easier for them to write. Yeah . I think doing that can really, or does really set you apart as a producer glass. I don't think a lot of people, a lot of producers think like that and I don't, I'm talking about setting apart. So what do y'all think sets you apart from other mixed engineers? Like what would make, you know, if someone, I guess like an interview question, when they say, why , why should we hire you? Like, I hate that question. Why stop asking me? No , I'm gonna make up something. That's a great question. Um, to be honest, I never really think about it, you know? So

Speaker 4:

Like man. Hmm . Um , yeah.

Speaker 2:

I'll let somebody else go first.

Speaker 4:

So Shane , we can't . Yeah .

Speaker 2:

Do you want me to help you? I'll say the artists , uh, right now probably look Cray . So the credit cards are on the phone right now and saying , man, this is not helping me, man. I heard some of your work . Let somebody else go, let me think, man, leave me alone.

Speaker 4:

I don't think I am set apart engineering wise, as I've said before, I'm kind of putting that, I'm taking that hat off. Um, I just, as you can see from the vocab quiz we had earlier , um, it is a lot to know there's a lot of diving to know and I think I've always been more creative than anything. So as far as what sets me apart as an engineer , um, Oh, I'm really good at vocal production. I love producing vocals. That was something my first mentor noticed. Um, when I came to him with the song that I actually sent to user, that song has been through so much. Um, but it had a whole bunch of vocals on it and I , I, I bounced them very well. Uh, one of the first pieces I record I mixed was a choral piece and I did that pretty well considering how bad the recordings were. So I think that sets me apart is that I really am good at vocal production. And that goes as far as recording vocals , um, mixing vocals, mixing multiple vocals , um, and then auto tuning. I'd really, I think I have a knack for that as well. So I think that sets me apart, my vocal production, but my mixes are trash and I'm willing. I just don't

Speaker 7:

Uh , I think hearing her say that reminded me of a, of a song I mixed for , uh , Mimi McCarley. I hear Nashville. It was a Trisha Leisha song. And I think kinda what makes me stand out and kind of one of the things that made me liked about the mix is that I approached it with a producer's ear because I produce as well. So I think I'm able to hear things differently when I mix in terms of , of range movement . I'm in terms of programming and even , um, sound replacement when necessary. So I think approaching a mix as a producer , um, helps me stand out as well as just communication. You know, really being able to, to being very precise and clear with communication, what I say and what I hear from the artists to make sure we're all on the same page so I can help bring their vision to life. Gotcha. And , um , there's a quick side note. You mentioned Trisha . Alicia, have you heard her new songs ? She just released NA Abbott . I've been seeing the Instagram posts about it, but I haven't clicked on it yet. I will today though. Thank you for the reminder. And it sounds just, I mean , the song is good, but, but sonically is well overdue . I don't know. And I don't know who mixed either. I think she put in an Instagram post, the kind of the credits, but whoever recorded and mixed that put their, put their foot in that. But , uh , I'll speak to, you know, what I feel sets me apart. First thing I would say is experience , uh, I've been doing this a long time. Uh, OSHA, you, you saying that as a producer, that helps. I think that helps me as well, being a producer before engineering, because I understand, I feel like that helped me or helps me understand maybe when someone sends a mix

Speaker 1:

And Pat , I know you do your own drops and all that stuff, but no , a lot of mixes, I get don't have that. And if the artist allows me to put my creativity on it, then y'all can put some drops in there and understand of just during the mix, what I can do to make it sound more interesting , uh, with that. And I think I've got a very high attention to detail as well that I hear a lot of mixes and I'm just kinda like they didn't hear that or they didn't catch that. My God, I have a high attention to detail when I'm mixing. Like before I get into really, really mixing, I got to do cleanup work first where, you know , maybe removing noise or rolling off hum or with the vocals little , um , like little mouth noises and stuff like that. Removing stuff like that, I think goes a long way to the final mixed product. That's just what I don't give a fuck to do any attention and care. I'm like , Pat, is there anything that sets you apart as the mix engineer?

Speaker 2:

Well ,

Speaker 1:

I don't do it.

Speaker 2:

I mean , I guess I can speak as far as produce that. I think, I think the biggest thing that sets me apart is I intentionally think of the song before I do anything. And I think my intentionality for each part did everyone plays in the song. I try to make , um, easy for people to do their job. I make the artists make it easy for the artist to perform on a track, make it easy for the song writer to write to the track, make it easy for the engineer to record it makes it or master it. So I guess that's kind of where I stand apart from most people, I think of the song first. And so I feel like the easy I'll make everybody job Erie , everybody else, job better . The song. Cause to me, that's what the ultimate role that a producer is traditionally produce

Speaker 1:

That whole song picture is that as you're making the beat or when you finish the ,

Speaker 2:

As I'm making it. Okay. So that's from once I started, once I get the first sound, I already start thinking, okay, what is the typical or how somebody approached it? And that kind of helps me be able to rest of the beat. Gotcha. And then, cause I do the same thing when the artists in the room, you know, I a listen. So I, the songwriters used to do their whole, well , sometimes they still do stop, but for the most part Kevin's Hill , if I need to just stop and just let them go. And then I just thought hail once I hear them start writing, I start forming the track before it's even finished . And so dead way as they're writing already got a format on a track. Now, all I gotta do is put in complimentary sounds to what they've already written after they finished writing the song. So I just made my job easier because they just wrote to the bare minimum track. So that means I don't really have to do much. Then now the vocal is on there. It's just like, okay, well I can put some little textures here, but it's so much easier to put the textures in the place where they supposed to be when the vocal is already there versus me imagining it being there and then trying to, you know, play stuff. Gotcha. So, alright , well , we're going to wrap this episode up. Thank everybody for tuning in to this episode. Remember to subscribe now where you get notified. Every time we release new episodes, if you're enjoying the podcast, we'd definitely appreciate reviews on Apple podcasts and also share with your other pro audio friends. And remember you can reach us on [email protected] as usual. We're going to post this episode in the Facebook group, which is faders up podcast and be sure to follow us on Instagram at faders podcast. All I'm sorry on Pat I'm O'Shea and we'll catch out next episode,

Speaker 8:

Jamie .